13 replies to this topic

[Hamp]

Religion of Peace

Not that many Islamic Clerics logs onto the Rant Page and reads my thoughts, but what I am about to say could mark me for liquidation. I have in the past both defended and attacked Islam, and those that practice its laws. I fully understand, something that many who talk on this subject do not, that I am using my moral beliefs to draw my conclusions from. Understanding this allows me to look more objectively on the subject matter. This is how I can often defend Muslims on the occasion that I do.

This topic has been brought up before, not so much by myself, but it has been worked over once or twice before. So if this sounds somewhat familiar that is why. This is about Honor and killing those who break it. Our moral code says that killing someone who breaks the honor of our families can be disowned, shunned and even run out on a rail, but not killed. I am going to post a whole article and comment on each line to point out poignant thoughts.

Quote

At least 943 Pakistani women and girls were murdered last year for allegedly defaming their family’s honor, the country’s leading human rights group said Thursday.

From the opening line we get a few things right off the bat. The first thing I noticed was the writer is not Muslim. While you or I may think that Honor Killings are Murder, many Muslims do not, even so called progressive Muslims come short of the murder tag for honor killings. The second thing I noticed was the number, 943! If this was a statistic put out by the American CDC we would be calling this a Pandemic!

Quote

The statistics highlight the growing scale of violence suffered by many women in conservative Muslim Pakistan, where they are frequently treated as second-class citizens and there is no law against domestic violence.

Again I need to look past the agenda of the writer. Like I said I can use my Understanding of where I am coming from to get past the slant as written. I am not saying the writer is wrong, but it is slanted. The use of the word 'conservative is not an accident or without double meaning. The article was written for the American reader, the word conservative is used to tie it to the American Conservative moment (Tea Party) but that is just an observation. The Statistics are appalling.

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Despite progress on better protecting women’s rights, activists say the government needs to do more to prosecute murderers in cases largely dismissed by police as private, family affairs.

I disagree, changing they way governments treat these acts we call crimes may help, but it will not change the way people think. You need to work on the root cause, and that is Islam itself. So long as Islamic Clerics tell the faithful that Honor Killings are condoned by God they will continue. If you are faithful to your faith can you think of something that your pastor, priest or cleric tells you that the government might outlaw, what would you follow? Me I know I would follow my faith, not my government.

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“At least 943 women were killed in the name of honor, of which 93 were minors,” wrote the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan in its annual report.

Again I need to point out that one word is subjective. 'Minors' to you and I are people under the age of 18. Under Muslim Law a woman becomes so after her first period. So yea, your 9 years of age and hit puberty, your no longer a minor. While you and I may think this barbaric we are using our set of morals not the laws of the Peaceful Religion of Islam.

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Seven Christian and two Hindu women were among the victims, it said.

This story does not report it, but I am willing to bet they were born Muslim, but that is just an assumption.

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The Commission reported 791 “honor killings” in 2010.

I bet it does not get better anytime soon. If you look back further in time I bet Honor killings were more common.

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Around 595 of the women killed in 2011 were accused of having “illicit relations” and 219 of marrying without permission.

Again 'Illicit Relations' to a Muslim could be as simple as being in a room with a man who is not related to you. Again you cannot attack this problem at a government level, especially when Muslims are in the government. This needs to be changed at the core. Which may be impossible to do. Look at the way people for centuries have tried to change the Catholic Church without success.

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Some victims were raped or gang raped before being killed, the Commission said. Most of the women were killed by their brothers and husbands.

Again under Islamic Law rape is not condoned but it is not exactly punished when a woman is guilty of acts of moral indiscretion. And it stands to reason that the people who head the family that was dishonored would kill those who committed that dishonor. So Fathers, Brothers and Husbands would be most likely to commit the act of restoring that honor by eliminating those offenders. Barbaric, but logical.

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Only 20 of 943 killed were reported to have been provided medical aid before they died, the Commission wrote.

20, I am surprised it was that many. I think the point of Honor Killing, is the killing part.

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Despite the rising number of reported killings, activists have praised parliament for passing laws aimed at strengthening women’s protection against abuses.

Rights groups say the government should do more to ensure that women subjected to violence, harassment and discrimination have effective access to justice.

Last year, a Belgian court sentenced four members of a Pakistani family to prison for the murder of their daughter, who defied them by living with a Belgian man and refused an arranged marriage.

Like I said, if you want to stop these practices, you will need to change the fundamental teachings of Islam. That is not going to be possible. Nope not even close. The best you can hope for is a co-exsistance, but will you be willing to live with a neighbor who killed his wife because she escorted you to their garage, this being alone with you (Guys, ladies just pretend you are a guy) so you could borrow a pair of hedge clippers? No I did not think so.

As I have said before until Good Muslims make themselves heard, you must assume all Muslims condone Honor Killings and other things we would call crimes against humanity. No Exceptions.

For Example the Muslim guy, Mohammad Merah who killed 7 including children,a Rabbi and 2 Muslims in France that had Frances president claiming that since he killed Muslims that this was not an Islamic murderer. That is Bull Crap, he killed 2 Muslim Army guys in the Army of the Infedel, not the Muslim Brotherhood. This was a Muslim Thing!

[Pariah]

Nevermind

[swampwander]

All societies have ties to horrible traditions when it comes to their daughters. Sometimes it took us a while to see it. It is what you are saying, we need to get to the root cause. It is an ingrained bigotry towards females in general. It is the mindset that females are to blame when males act badly towards them. Really? I'm to blame because some guy assaults me no matter how I look? Got an extra daughter at home? Sell her to the nearest slaver where she will become a child prostitute. One too many female babies? Leave one out for the dogs. This happens in more countries with more religions than we can even discuss. Using Islam (or hinduism or sufi or, or, or) is just an excuse.

[Elderban]

Less than 100 years ago, women in America couldn't vote.

Less than 200 years ago, women in America were considered "property".

Less than 300 years ago, women in America were auctioned off to forcibly become wives.

Less than 400 years ago, women in America were burned at the stake because they were thought to be witches.

An average of 2,000 women a year are killed by their husbands in America.

Still today in America, women are chastised as being "sluts" if they use contraceptives.

Now, I'm not saying that honor killings are acceptable, but just pointing out that the religious apple doesn't fall too far from the tree.

And, on the subject of Islam, not all who follow the faith believe in honor killings, so generalizing that an entire faith is bad based on the actions of a few is like saying that all of Catholicism is bad because Tim McVeigh blew up the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building.

There are an estimated 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. 993 people following Islam and doing honor killings makes up 0.000006% of that number.

Although, murder is still murder, no matter what faith you follow.

[Mustanger]

Very good points Elderban and I agree with them. It might be worth pointing out that there are many attrocities ordered under the Christian religion sometime by God Himself if you read the Bible.

Read:

1 Samuel 15

[Pariah]

Nevermind

[Elderban]

No religion is peaceful. Even Pat Robertson has called for the bombing of Iran and compares non-Christians to a virus that should be eradicated.

[Pariah]

Nevermind

[swampwander]

You're holding up western christianity as the 'changed' or 'modernized' group. Can't say that I buy it. There's a reason eastern european, asian, African and south american women are sold into bondage for prostitution rings that can be found here in the states. Again, it has NOTHING to do with religion. These women are considered lower than dirt by their pimps who will beat, maim or kill them for anything.

The killing of females has very little to do with one's choice of religion. It has everything to do with how a society's males view females. Period. If that society's leaders believe that females are less than dirt, then that is what they will tell their followers. It is not religion that forces these changes, but women with the backing of some men who are willing to stand beside the women instead of in front of them.

[Elderban]

swampwander, on 23 March 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

The killing of females has very little to do with one's choice of religion. It has everything to do with how a society's males view females. Period. If that society's leaders believe that females are less than dirt, then that is what they will tell their followers. It is not religion that forces these changes, but women with the backing of some men who are willing to stand beside the women instead of in front of them.

Yes and no. It all depends on how you view religion. A lot of how women have been and are treated is based on religion, however most scriptures, bibles, quarans and other religous materials were written by men several thousand years ago, and back then it was accepted (even by women) that they be treated as property. In some cultures, this is still accepted today.

Me? I find it hard to believe that God would say, according to Deuteronomy 22, Verse 20-21, that a woman should be stoned to death on her father's doorstep if she's not a virgin at the time of her marriage.

[Bookie61]

Elderban, on 26 March 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

Yes and no. It all depends on how you view religion. A lot of how women have been and are treated is based on religion, however most scriptures, bibles, quarans and other religous materials were written by men several thousand years ago, and back then it was accepted (even by women) that they be treated as property. In some cultures, this is still accepted today.

Me? I find it hard to believe that God would say, according to Deuteronomy 22, Verse 20-21, that a woman should be stoned to death on her father's doorstep if she's not a virgin at the time of her marriage.

You yourself said religious materials were written by men.... and what are they but a MAN's interpretation of events?

The virgin at marriage thing is understood as being a basis of surety of your protegeny's bloodline. Not to say that one or two didn't get slipped past his Lordship, but in general it was more for the purity of the lines. But we are talking100+ years ago. Things have changed a wee bit since then.

All religions grow and come to some understanding of humanity. However, the Muslim faith doesn't seem to have taken into consideration that other faiths have been 'enlightened', and theirs has not, nor will it's tenets of submsiion and domination of women be taken lightly by other faiths.

[swampwander]

There was a great article today on the problem with spousal abuse in India. Once again, religion plays no role in this. It's Hindu, Christian and Muslim who are doing it. That society still views females as lower caste than males. She is considered disposable by her parents once she marries and property by her spouse's family. In SE Asia, girls are commonly sold off to prostitution as a way to pay of familial debt. Again, religion plays no role in it. The old texts may refer to females as property, but it is up to the society to change. We obviously didn't change the Bible, we just changed our view of the writings.

[Damien]

remember former member, Martin? Back on my former forum? ....he is a Muslim who was quit vocal and mentioned that many were actually vocal - in their communities. Just because they don't seek the media coverage (or the media don't care), does not mean people do not speak out. Martin says 'hi' to all, but won't be back.

I will say this though - I have worked with and taught many Muslim colleagues and students. I have travelled with many to conferences and excursions. I have attended many dicussions with many Muslims. I have been invited to their homes and their Mosques - I have shared a meal at their table as they have shared a meal at mine....a lot of these people are my friends and a few are on my facebook.

thus, I will only speak of the families I know of 9about 40 or so, from 6 different countries) - I have seen families no different to my own in all of them.

The Muslim girls that I have taught are now in University - in Singapore, Berlin, Hong Kong, Tokyo, Melbourne, Sydney, Paris, London, Manchester and Oxford. Their chosen professions range from photographers to doctors, structural engineers to actors.... all of their own choice, their mothers an fathers so very proud of them and encouraging them all the way! (The photography student is on my facebook, her work is brilliant, truly brilliant!).

I will also only speak of my experiences of visiting Mosques in Singapore and Malaysia - I was greeted warmly by all there, I thoroughy enjoyed speaking with and sharing tea with the Imam of both - incidently, thew knew full well that I am Catholic. I still receive emails and letters from the Imam.

So, speaking of my international, albeit small experience - to me, the Muslims I have met were no different to everyone else I met.

I am certain iI will get flamed, ignored or something or other for this - but, remember these are observations that I have made.

[Hamp]

Not at all Damo, I am pleased to hear from you and I do remember Martin, Hi Back. I stand corrected with something you said, one argument that says a lot that needs me to rethink some of my positions. "Just because they don't seek the media coverage (or the media don't care)" As you see the from section I made bold I have a tendency to agree with that as a very valid and real argument.

Also remember this site, I will sometimes play devils advocate to spark debate.